On our most recent edition of Starfish Sessions, Tim Farr spoke with Eileen Milner, an experienced non-executive who has worked across both the public and private sectors. Eileen spoke candidly about her career history, reflections on her transition from executive to non-executive and managing a busy portfolio.

Please do introduce yourself, who you are, recent career history and organisations you’ve worked with recently?

It’s actually quite hard to neatly summarise my career as I don’t have a linear career trajectory in the way that others might. I’ll say I’m a former Chief Executive who has worked across higher education, the commercial sector as well as in the public sector and I have always gravitated towards health and education.

 an you tell us a bit more about the work you’re doing currently?

I’m working with several organisations in a non-executive capacity at the moment. I Chair the Bradford Children and Families Trust, an organisation I’ve worked with for two years now since before their inception and it is possibly one of the most challenging roles I’ve done.

I also Chair a Mental Health and Community Trust close to my home and my heart, Cambridge and Peterborough Foundation NHS Foundation Trust. During COVID I was very alive to the likely impacts the pandemic might have on the mental health and wellbeing of children and young people and I felt strongly about seeking to make a commitment and contribution to our mental health services.

Finally, I sit on the board at Ofqual. I have a passion for the transformative abilities of education and skills acquisition, I firmly believe that the way that education and skills interact can only serve to impact positively on productivity and greater equity in the economy and wider society. I’m really trying to bring focus onto apprenticeships and vocational education so we treat those with the same weight of importance as traditional qualifications like GCSEs and A Levels.

What advice would you give to someone who wants to transfer their skills to other sectors or do something a bit different in their career?

Unfortunately, there’s no magic bullet at all on this topic and it’s something I’m frequently asked about. I did work in different sectors myself and I’m a real champion for bringing people in from different backgrounds; I was very fortunate in my career that I had people who championed me as a candidate, and I’ve tried to repay this in terms of the way that I support people to traverse sectors. I urge those recruiting to positions to reflect rather less on where candidates come from and to be more willing to look at CVs which might be slightly different, to see what benefits different skillsets and backgrounds can bring. For candidates, you must be prepared to talk clearly about what your motivations are and to make sure you’re well prepared with a strong application -some of the public service recruitment processes can feel very alien to those whose careers have been in the commercial sector.

We’re often asked about making the move from executive to non-executive work, how did you secure your portfolio of work?

Personal connections and networks play an important role here. You can’t work for a long time without knowing people and building a good network and it is important to nurture and maintain that network. I’ve always felt a profound sense of duty that if something is really hard and needs doing that you should be willing to walk towards these roles. Someone once told me you can have a mindset that allows you to run towards bullets or a strong preference to run away from them and I’ve always tried to be willing to walk towards them. Some people think having a portfolio career is in some ways easier but it’s not, if you want a portfolio career you shouldn’t shy away from the hardest jobs – they need and deserve the best people.

Did you find the transition from executive to non-executive a challenge?

I did face some withdrawal symptoms initially but I was fortunate in my role with Bradford Children and Families Trust that it felt very much like being an executive Chair of a start-up. The realisation that there’s nothing in your direct gift that you can do or get done in isolation is a brilliant gift as a Chair, instead you are fully focused on bringing in the right people to move things along at pace. I looked forward to new people joining the organisation and populating the executive team to allow me to reposition my role into far more of non-executive chair space.

Another observation about moving into a portfolio career was that the “wrapper” that exists around you when working as an executive in an organisation disappears – I still miss this. As Chair you must realise the limitations and focus of your role because you aren’t there as Chief Executive or a Director. You must focus on the right things, create the conditions for the leadership team to succeed, for organisational purpose and ambition to be defined and delivered and you have to recalibrate your role constantly. You are there to make sure good governance and assurance is in place, you are driving improvements and focusing on relationships with key partners.

What advice would you give to someone thinking about moving into non-executive work themselves?

There are very practical things to do moving from an executive to non-executive career, you must work out what your new work/life balance looks like. I actually thought I might build some downtime into my working week but I’ve found that the ‘always on’ mentality of CEO doesn’t go away when you become a Chair. You will still feel acutely responsible for the success of an organisation, you will still be supporting people within it and managing relationships with stakeholders. There is an equal level of intensity but in a different way – it’s been a reality check and a reminder that public service roles remain hard and you must go in with eyes wide open.

I also think it’s important to view these roles as continuous learning experiences. We have all worked with some excellent role models and some less-than-good role models in our careers and it’s important to constantly learn from what you observe and experience in terms of how to operate effectively as a Chair or NED, the things you see that work well and the things that irk you while still remaining true to yourself.

How do you manage the balance of working with multiple organisations?

It’s a big challenge but also one of the great joys working in this way if you enjoy working in organisations with complexity and challenge. You need to have real mental agility to zoom out of one organisation and helicopter into another, it’s something I get real enjoyment out of though it may not always feel like it. Working in this way requires innate flexibility too, you can’t compartmentalise your day or your week. You can never mandate when an organisation is going to need you and you always need to give them time despite how much difficulty it might cause you. I was proud of some recent feedback from one of the Chief Executives I work with who said, “I always forget you work with other organisations”. Every organisation you work with should feel like they have your undivided attention and therein lies the juggling act.

What do you look for when recruiting for NEDs?

It might sound obvious but deep domain knowledge about a particular subject area and the ability for that candidate to be able to clearly demonstrate from their work experience that they can provide assurance, scrutiny and support to the Board and Executive team. I don’t necessarily look for people who have been NEDs before, I’m passionate about developing new NEDs, but we do need people to come in with expertise and know how to challenge effectively to make sure we ask the right questions. It’s important you’re able to demonstrate this as part of a formal interview process too which can be hard for people who haven’t grown up in that tradition of recruitment to effectively showcase your skills.

For senior leaders it can be difficult to know whether to step away from executive work into either non-executive or consultancy/project-based/advisory work, some people enjoy a mix of both. What led you to choosing a portfolio career?

I had recently come out of a difficult role and I could feel that my energy to do another CEX role had diminished slightly but my desire and passion for public service had not. I spoke with people in my network for advice and guidance about what to do next which led me to pursue a portfolio career and I’ve found doing several things that I felt passionately about allowed for a different type of contribution to the sectors I feel so strongly about.

What advice would you give to people who have been through similar hardships with work?

Anyone working at senior level will have faced challenges at some point in their career. You must have a strong core and belief system; I would ask myself what do I believe in? What is my duty? How can I always demonstrate that I will act with integrity and fulfil my duties? That’s what I’ve always drawn upon. My core has been tested throughout my career, both in non-executive and executive work and it’s something you must never take for granted – you have to work at it constantly to challenge and test yourself. Ask yourself honestly, am I ready for a particular role or assignment? And don’t be afraid to take soundings or advice from your network, from people you respect but also from those who might not necessarily think you’re the best thing since sliced bread!

Any advice you’d give your younger self?

Don’t get despondent. Lots of people approach me who think I’ve led a charmed career, and whilst I have been blessed and privileged in many ways, the reality is that I have had my challenges. I’ve been despondent at times about what to do next with my career and I remember advice my mother used to give me and I now give to my daughter – things will always work out for the best, you just don’t realise it in that moment.

I would also say stop apologising for the things I’ve not done before and focus on the things I’ve learned. As people we tend to focus on our deficits rather than the assets we bring.

What would you say is the single proudest moment of your career?

It’s very difficult to pick just one. I am extremely proud of the Children’s Trust in Bradford and the difference it’s making for children and young people in the area with the incredible staff who work in the organisation. As an executive, without doubt I would say that my greatest pride was in the entire staff of the ESFA and the way in which they responded to the challenges of the pandemic – they were simply exceptional.

How will you know when it’s the right time to retire?

I aspire to slowly phase myself out of work, that’s what the logical part of my brain tells me will happen. At the moment my desire to work with public services to solve problems remains undiminished and I am not ready to start the phasing out any time soon. It does demand an enormous amount of time and energy from you, so it is wise to consider how to retreat from this as there are so many other things in life to enjoy.